Well giskard the.next. batch will be with welded aluminum flanges and I will have a machine shop make up a bunch.In the process of test fitting these in the 4345's ( along with many horn/driver combo's ) I found that the larger diameter 1.5' ( 2451 ) and 2' ( 2450 / 475 / 2441 ) WILL fit with the 2311 horn.BUT I don't think they will in the smaller 4343???It's a snug fit but it's possible that some production runs might be different???? I have seen some pretty poor craftsmanship / tolerances in some of the cabinetry from that era.:(sub. Soon man, soon.When we get above 50 degrees here in spring, and the ground is not frozen / soggy, we tend to administer the awakening rites to that great home depot money soak:THE LAWNWhich entails multiple teenage boys ( for our teenage daughters to fawn over / bother with ), delivery of copious amounts of chicken wings + fluids.And then self-administering refreshing anti-freeze into the bloodstream while downing tylenol to minimize the middle age muscle ache blues.:cheers:Which puts the speaker tweaking on a sidetrack.I will let you guys know this week. I need to:(A) Compensate the impedance of the driver ( the 2450Sl is 8 ohms ) on the crossover.(B) Rout / install the new removable horn baffle ( to allow interchangeability from the FRONT with the conical and array horn ). The horns come in tuesday afternoon.
I feel that the 2332 will outshine the conical horn/lens and want to A-B them directly in realtime.(C) Finsh assembling the power rack ( dual crown delta omega / crown SA2 / JBL 5234A and the crown SL2 ). I want to judge these with the complete biamped power setup not just the SA2 in passive mode.(D) Reinstall the 2405 tweeters ( new diaphrams and plexi centers.).sigh.sub. Yes, sorry for taking so long. There is actually a right way to integrate this horn and there is the quick and dirty way. The quick and dirty way probably works good enough with digital signal processing applied.For those who might hesitate to cut a 2307 or H91 down to the 1.5' exit for use with 1.5' c.d.' JBL did just that to make the 2311/H93 for 2' exit c.d.'
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Don't use the 2312 or H92 though, the flare rate isn't 'right' for this application. Also, none of these horns are for use below 1 kHz.Is it a matter of the new tapper being wrong for the old taper? Excuse me if taper isn't the correct term, I'm not sure if it is or not. How bout when you want to put a 1.5 on a 1' horn. Can you cut it where it's large enough drill the flange and weld (or glue) it back on. Or are there special rules there. Also do you change the low cut off because you've changed the ratio of the input to the output?
Sorry for the freshman questions but I've been wrestling with them and they seemed very related. Is it a matter of the new tapper being wrong for the old taper? Excuse me if taper isn't the correct term, I'm not sure if it is or not.
How bout when you want to put a 1.5 on a 1' horn. Can you cut it where it's large enough drill the flange and weld (or glue) it back on. Or are there special rules there. Also do you change the low cut off because you've changed the ratio of the input to the output? Sorry for the freshman questions but I've been wrestling with them and they seemed very related.I'd suspect there are some heavy mathematics behind the final correct solution for this kind of mod.Or, as Giskard mentioned, the Quick and Dirty approach.Sorry - all I can think of is flow testing an intake manifold - smooth is better, gentle curves and gradual tapers.Isn't audio related to airflow over the surfaces?. Question:What about manufacturing a conical shaped horn out hardwoods with the correct flare rate and length and ending in a 1.5' mounting flange. Seems like a lathe turning operation.Or:Machining the above mentioned horn out of an aluminum billet.It seems as if it would be similar to making a birch bowl on the lathe, that so many turners do here in Alaska.It could be turned out of Beautiful hardwoods, or laminations of different species, and end up as a real show stopping piece of art.I could have my friend, the Admiral, turn one from a billot of al, or maybe brass.Is this idea plausible, and has anyone else tried it?Scott.
Designing ( horns ) is not an exact science - as G.T. Said, it is a series of compromises. Here are some measurements of the 2421B/2307/2308 and the 435Be/2313/2308The second graph is somewhat normalized.The impedance curves are completely different and I'll post them when I have time.I've decided to put this whole 435Be/2313/2308 variant on the far back burner for now due to the shear number of deliverables that I am in hot water for. These 2313's are headed back to subwoof next Monday.Thank you subwoof.The TAD TD-2002 on the 2307 option is pretty damn nice.
I have no idea what the cost differential is though.Thank you Mr. I wonder how he finds the time to do all these things!RonPerhaps.?a. He is really dedicated to this stuff and, despite the frustration, still tries to give and share info with those who he feels can really appreciate itb. He has a gadget he got from Nikola Tesla and cloned himself. Ala The Prestigec.
Wormhole technologyd. He has an espresso coffeemaker and rarely sleepse. He is part of a business and 'Giskard' is just the corporate image, like the Maytag repair man - many people may be playing the role of G.f. Pays him the big bucks to be here (might be related to e.
Perhaps he has a nice life offline and longs to be there more than here.(Said in playful support, no offense or slights intended to G). Well it's 2 months later and I still haven't seen my 2435 drivers or my horns even after speaking on the phone directly with Giskard.it's been 9 months since I sent them.:(Does anybody else have items in limbo also???Yes, unfortunately there are quite a few deliverables still to work through. I should have sent the horns back separately from the 2435's. I have seven more 2435's to do out of a batch of thirty-nine. All were done with the correct aquaplas and ferrofluid. Two of yours and one of Guido's were the only ones that suffered the doublestick tape creep.
It took me nearly thirty minutes just to get the diaphragm out of Guido's 2435.The 2452 looks more fitting physically than the 2435. You'll have to run a response curve with that combo and the network and compare it to stock. I suspect there will be a new run on 2452's like there was a run on 2435's.:p Perhaps a run on these custom exponentials as well. I know that I'd take a pair just for fun but only if I could find a pair of L94 serpentines to go along with them and that probably isn't going to happen.:rotfl:. I thought subwoof cut the 2307 for OA drivers to essentially include the throat lengththat would already be there for the 2450. I.e., OA driver + custom horn being theapproximate equivalent of non-OA-2' driver + 2311 (in regard to throat+horn length).I think I've figured this out.
I'm not sure the 2307 and 2311 have the same expansion rate. It doesn't add up anyway. Remember, the original setup had the full length of the 2307 plus a non-throatless driver. The 2311 plus the 2450 already compromises that. The '2313' with a throatless driver goes even further. Perhaps part of the merit of the original setup with the coated diaphragm is that the total horn length is what it should be.
Best I've heard so far in this application is the original horn with a 1' TAD driver.David. Best I've heard so far in this application is the original horn with a 1' TAD driver.I think that TAD is a really nice driver.G.T. Had some input into this whole thing and I came to the conclusion after I messed with several combinations that the stock Al or Ti diaphragms with aquaplas applied and alnico cores offered the best balance and bang for the buck with the TAD being a very good option at increased expense. Of course, you guys are getting these 2435's and 2452's at substantially reduced costs so I can see why you would want to try them out in various scenarios. Well I've apparently killed too many brain cells.:blink:went back and re-read post #1 where the 2311 and '2313' are listed as:Wouldn't the 1.5' throat version need to be 7 1/2' (ala the 2311+2330) unlessthe 2313 flare is now compound or otherwise modified?Why?
To maintain horn length? It simply doesn't matter, the system is jacked anyway in that respect so it just doesn't matter. I'd be more worried about the frequency response and impedance curve of any new combination so as to modify the network accordingly.
The math involved in this horn mod was to simply get the horn cut off to the point that the resultant horn + small thickness of flange ( to be beveled later ) was equal to 1.5'In my initial posting(s) I measured the actual phase plug to horn exit for all 3 combo's:2307 / 2421 is 10 1/2 ' ( 8 1/2 + 2 )2311 / 2441 ( or 2450 ) is 7 1/2' ( 4 3/4 + 2 3/4 )2313 / 2451 or 2435 ( and now 2452 variants ) is only 4 3/4'I feel that the larger, more robust 4' diaphrams will handle any excursion / rolloff anomalies caused by the shorter horn. This isn't a football stadium, full power wide range app for this driver combo.Remember that the 'time alignment' issue for the long horn is also reduced to almost the depth of the 15 or 18 cone!I have all of these horns and combo's - and the 2311/2330 had the same flare as the 2307 but the extra flange thickness ( and the fact the 2330 is for the ALTEC 1.4' ) changed the overall length a little.The 2312 IS a different horn flare and should not be in this discussion.In all this is just an experiment of modest goals - not the engineering pancea to re-invent the wheel.:)sub. I feel that the larger, more robust 4' diaphrams will handle any excursion / rolloff anomalies caused by the shorter horn.Not an issue given that you should cross them at 1kHz or higher. What you will do is play signal through the midbass driver and this horn/c.d. Combo at the same time and measure the frequency response (make sure the horn/c.d. Combo has its sensitivity brought down in line with the midbass driver using an L-Pad). Where there is a sharp dip in response you will place your intended crossover frequency.
It should be around 1.2 kHz (If I remember correctly I got 1.275 kHz with the 435Be). Interesting.For what its worth I have heard the aluminium (2421), titanium (2425), acquaplas with titanium and stock Be diaphragms (Tad 2002) very recently in the 4345.IMHO the diaphragm material is the key to improved performance, not the horn length or rear diaphragm piston area in this system. The coated titanium is better by an audible margin and Be (Tad) is noticably better again. They have more resolution.Unfortunately the Tad 2002 has been discontinued. So the only option for you guys is the JBL Be equiped 2435 driver (0435) but it means modifying the 2307 as discussed by Subwoofer.(I heard the Be 2435 at Rob's but with another JBL PT horn)Ian. Do not chop yet.the cut-off point is on a section of the horn's inside diameter that is LARGER than 1.5' for my 2313 project.If you look at the pictures I posted, you will see that the now-cutoff horn sits into a recess on the wood flange. The section of wood that is now between the horn and where the driver mounts has to be hand-beveled to get the correct 1.5' dimension.IF you are going to simply weld a new flange on the horn, and made the new flange slide over the outside, then you would cut off the horn at a different point ( where the inside diameter IS exactly 1.5'NEITHER of these lengths are 4.75' and until I re-check my templates and horn stash today, unknown.I will post some additional info in a few hours.sub.
He snorted and.Well here's the actual results. As expected, it reached the bottom and the depth was 4 and 5/8 inches ( 4.625 )WHEN I stuck this same ruler into the 2307, it only went down to 4 and 1/4 ( 4.25 )But SURPRISE SURPRISE when I stuck it into my 2313 ( which was a cut off CONSUMER H91 ), it only went down 3 and 1/4 ( 3.25 )!!This truly is bizarre.
I wonder what the taper is in the brand new '2307's' I sent to richluvsound. They came out of the 4344 MK II if I remember correctly. I guess I'll measure the 2307's I have when I get home tonight and see 'which ones' I have.
Now we have to hand pick these things?. I happen to have one of each on the 'WTF' table.the bakelite throat of the 2440 is 2 and 3/4 ( 2.75 ) inches.the aluminum throat of the 2420 is 1 and 7/8 ( 1.875 ) inches.Both appear to be conical or if exponential, a damn small flare.I don't have a 2440 throat out of a driver to lay a flat edge inside of and don't have a thin enough ruler for the 2420. But I will check soon.I have (2) 2307's in my 4341's ( this is the one I measured ) and 2 NOS from the late 80's in storage.
Time to check.:)sub. I have seen the 'casting' differences in the (3) generations of the 2345 ( the first had no flange on the top ), The 2340 ( none ever fit into another's cutout.grrr.
) the 5039 / 2343 horns as used in the paragon / 2395 lens assy, and the 2328 throats.Since they appear to be sand casts (??) that were welded together, maybe they changed over long-term use or different 'masters' were made at different times.And CNC machines weren't around then and the designers at JBL had to descend from the mountain with white robe and sandals to impart wisdom to the shop floor without so much as a 4 banger calculator since a slide rule was a little complicated.We need an old-timer who was privy to the mfgr details to answer this one.sub:cheers:. Some time ago I found (4) black painted 2311 ( H93 ) knock-off's at a music store that also have 2307 ( H91 ) clones I don't know what the brand was ( not mcCauley ) but they were physically interchangeable with the JBLs.- If I read this correct, your 2313s may have been made out of off-shore clones. That'll be a real kicker for others to duplicate.- I have some of these 2307 clones / I believe they were distributed, across N.
America by Image ( Audio, Sound, or Communcations? / the same people who used to handle Radian diaphragms ). I've hacked up a few of my clones ( flanges ) since they weren't bonafide 2307s.
They are painted in a black crackle type finish, just like a H91s.- The H91 clones measure down to @ 3.5' of depth, at the 2' wide point ( using a stiff 2' by 3.5' business card as a ruler ).:)ps: This same outfit also offered the 'L11', which was the lense equivalent to the L91. They're all Taiwanese made.
Well it looks like my 2313's are made from the image clones if Earl's observation is correct. And the paint finish was so spot-on like the JBL's. I feel like I just found lead in my batman teething toy.chinese infiltrators.Never mind sherlock ( but the opium sounds good ) We need hong kong Phooey.Crap. Well it was a good effort none the less and maybe it's guillotine time for the gray boys in the box this weekend.let them eat lens.My measurement was with a ruler that was 1/8 thick so a paper thin business card would go that extra little bit and measure what rich did. So it looks like the 1974 and the 2000 versions of the 2307 ARE the same.If we knew the formula, any diameter at any length from the throat could be determined. But since the 2307 and 2311.were.
pretty close, and the 2313.does. measure the same as the clones, it looks like we have solved the mystery.JUST to be safe, don't cut until the weekend when I get a chance to measure the actual H91's.And then I will modify my measurements.again.and post the process, AGAIN.BTW - back in the late 70's I worked for a dealer that had a spray paint can of JBL gray from JBL to touch up those horn cluster jobs. Has anybody duped it?sub.
2440/41 With Sl Diaphragms In The Body
Nice work grumpy. I feel relieved although I now have a pair of one-of-a-kind bastard children. The horn's slightly increased rate probably means it has a wider dispersion at crossover which is probably an advantage when using 10' or larger LM cones.SO for anybody so interested, I will make the one-time offer of a pair of these '2313' horns and a pair of JBL 2450J's with meyer 1.5' snout adapters ( which will add the requisite 1 inch or so of depth ) for a measly 600 dollars + actual shipping. And we can ship all over the world with no problem.this is a bargain fella's.This gives you 434X owners / DIY'ers a chance to play large diaphram without a boatload of engineering and save 2000 dollars.!
The driver is a 2' AND 1.5 with adapter!This offer expires in 24 hours.:)here is a picture:. There is a local company that does some serious AL welding so it would be a continous weld not a few tacks. Weight isn't an issue with the Nd's but someone else later might want to use the 2447 since they will be dropping like a stone in price.I have 2 straight days of Dr visits and traveling for the wife but all the med stuff will FINALLY be over. It's been almost a year since the diagnosis.:)I will draw up the flange tonight and post if I can also get my teenage daughter to NOT ask for multiple 'taxi' trips.sub.
Giskard,the horns you sent me came in a box marked 2307. They are a non -crinkel black. I have no reason to doubt your integrity.I have a pair that Guido sent me that are copies. These are the ones I wish to mod for my 2435's.As far as gossip is concerned. I have been waiting to for some parts to complete a project for another member. This has been a topic of conversation. It has been frustrating,but not to the point of bad mouthing you.I understand you have had some big changes in your personal life and have tempered my comments with this in mind.From what I understand, there are indeed people pissed off, but NOT ME!!!I don't care enough to give my energy to negativity.
I don't know you. All I know is that you are a very talented man and that peolpe here on the forum respect and depend on you.I don't not wish to get drawn into anything Toxic.You don't know me Giskard. If you have pissed me off I would PM you as I did before ( remember )I should of PM'd this but, as you chose to bring this into the thread, I feel this is the best place to give my responseRich:blink:.
Dr.dbHi folks,Im a huge JBL-Vintage fan and just can't get off this georgious stuffI got several K-Series and Tweets.My current midrange is a 2470 with phenolic-diaphragm. Now I know this is not the first choice when you go for nice sound.The drivers will be running at home, so no big punishing and extraordinous levels. But thou the K`s aren`t quiet eitherSo right now I`m wondering which drivers to look out for.I actually don`t even know if I shell go for the 1-inches or the 2-inches.!?They will be running from bout 700hz to aprox. 15khz!?I`m not shure yet bout the 15khz, but they have to arrange with my 2405 at top.I would believe that a 1-inch Driver will sound better in the higher mids.!?So the only advantage of a 2-inch is the freq.range from 500hz to 1000hz where it simply has more power.But above lets say 1500hz most 1-inch drivers will perform better?Or is any 2-inch driver even the best choice?At this point I would reckon that the JBL 2420 would be the best sounding Alnico-Driver.Would you go with me.?But somehow LE-175 and LE-85 score way higher prices. Do they sound better?Which driver would be your first choice?How does a 2420 compare to a 2441?Thanks a lot for your help, I really do appreciate this!!Regards Olaf. I would characterize the difference between the 1' and 2' outlet drivers as being less distortion and more ease, more body in the larger drivers, particularly in frequencies below 1200 Hz, but the differences are easily discernible above that as well.
Either one can be used to 9 or 10 K with no problem. The 2405 can handle it from there on up.JBL at one point decided to have a separate line of professional components and renamed some of the drivers it had been selling for decades as consumer/professional with four-digit model numbers. Do some reading in the library to get the drift of that. You need a horn. In my opinion you would do yourself a favor by starting with a pair of 2370's or 2345's. Either should come well below $200.
I have heard the 2470 with the 2345, and I think the combination is quite listenable. The weak link in your system is what you should address first. It's your horn.Also, the 2470 dies at 9k, and if you do not have your 2405's running now you are not getting any UHF.Clone the high-pass only portion of the 2405 part of the 3107 and it will blend in pretty well, I think. For not too much money you could get a big improvement without starting all over from the beginning. I would even do that before replacing the horns.You also need the correct crossover for either the 2370 or 2345. To honor your original request-from my experience.For me personally, TAD TD4003 on Th4003.By reputation the JBL 476 is every bit the equal of the TAD, but I have not heard it, and it is not available separate from the Everest II anyway.As to what is worth checking out-In JBL I've heard the 2450 with SL diaphragms in the 4345, and it is very good.Also the 2450 with SL diaphragms on an Emilar EH500 with an active crossover, but just briefly.
I made a mental note to check it out more thoroughly.I suspect, because it has been recommended to me, that I would like the 2440/41 with SL diaphragms even better.The non-beryllium capper in JBL may be the 2452SL, a very modern driver, on the 2352, but I have not tried it yet.You may soon discover that budget must be decided upon. 'My current mid range is a 2470 with phenolic-diaphragm.' I have both LE175s and 2470s, I swapped out one of the LE175s with a 2470 in my 3 way system. I could not tell the difference, between the two crossing over at 4.5Khz to the HF driver.You could get 2420 diaphragms for the 2470s and this will give you a better high end.Yes 2' divers will handle down to 500hz, but 2' horns tend to big!The lens does not color the sound, at least to my ears.
The used market tends to be the about the only way to get them.McCauley and Beyma used to make clones of the JBL H/L systems.What 'Ks' do you have?